Steve, regarding the comment at the 35 minute mark about the people lacking electoral power, I think ‘the people’ still have tremendous electoral power. That power is rarely realized though. Capital is highly organized and in solidarity on economic matters, for the most part. Capital is motivated to advance their economic cause. The people, on the other hand, are highly disorganized and lack solidarity (surely some of this is due to intentional agitation by capital). I sense very little motivation from the people. For all the talk about health care reform, for example, is there even any meaningful discourse on even just the progressive side about the nature of healthcare reform in terms of, say, the Beveridge vs. the Bismarck vs. the National Insurance models of national healthcare?
I’m thinking not even though our tardiness in implementing a national healthcare model at least gives us the opportunity to evaluate what so many other countries have done. There is certainly a ‘Waiting for Superman’ mentality that all which needs to be done is to find a leader who is supremely informed about all of these matters and will pick the right policies. Well, I suspect capitalists don’t subscribe to that belief. They know politicians are malleable and so they not only push their ideology, but they give politicians specific policies already worded to try to enact in Congress and they tell politicians how to sell the policies to their constituents.
Of course, ‘the people’ are highly divided. Certainly in the last century or so, western society has tried to strive for a ‘middle-class’ ideal. By that, I mean more of the academic definition of ‘middle-class’ rather than how some Americans view the term as being some kind of definition of having stable employment. We know, and it was known in Marx’s time, that middle-class people tend to associate more with capital than with the proletariat, if we want to use that term. We could look at higher education values, which often support more of a globalist, free market…neoliberal mentality versus more of a labor movement mentality. There’s a lot to unpack there. Much of this is related to things Bilbo has talked about in recent months about the New Left. I wish Bilbo would talk more about it and I hope it wasn’t just momentary discourse which came up in the aftermath of the US election!
Perhaps with the middle-class orientation of many progressives, much less the more centrist population, blocks people from seeing that the only way to reform the healthcare sector or the military-industrial complex, for example, is by supporting labor in those fields so that they can advocate for nationalization without fear of losing jobs. It is hard to achieve that without MMT-informed policies, and the JG is not really a factor here even though there should be a JG. People working in these fields where reform is needed need to have their current employment and wages guaranteed without fear of relocation or burdensome re-training. There are ways to achieve this, which I’ve mentioned before, but we don’t hear much about it. We rather see what I call Shylockian narratives from many progressive corners (not here at RP, I understand!) which looks like either progressives want to punish labor in these fields or labor is merely callously ignored. That doesn’t sound very progressive to ole’ Klassik and it also sounds like a surefire way to never have enough votes to achieve any kind of reform!
Regarding ‘taxpayer’ narratives, if I may rant and rave a little longer about how dangerous these can be, I recently read some London in Nathan J. Robinson’s progressive ‘Current Affairs’ publication. Robinson once claimed to be pro-MMT after Kelton’s book was published when it was trendy to be pro-MMT, but then he published this nonsense by another writer, apparently by an Ivy League history Ph.D. student, convincing people not to pay federal taxes to prevent the funding of the war machine. It is infuriating that this ‘progressive’ narrative is encouraging people to engage in illegal acts, which makes them subject to severe and likely crippling personal economic sanctions, based on a faulty understanding of the monetary system. Shame on Robinson for publishing this dangerous balderdash: https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/what-happened-to-war-tax-protests
Strongly recommend reading up on Marten Gilens Princeton study in 2014 and also a deeper dive into the structure of the "originating documents" drawn up by wealthy white land owners/slavers. I find the evolution of our nation proving out so many of the unfortunate misunderstandings of what we have as a government. A bourgeois estate with police to enforce their place in society. It is very tough to have an honest and deep look at what we call "electoral politics" and begin to understand each tool we think we have to "within the rules" fight back. It's a depressing thing when your only tool in the pouch is an oligarch controlled electoral, media and governance model
I’ll have to look into that. I will say is that I was recently involved in a very revelatory experience about the state of the understanding of MMT with those who influence policy and how this relates to progressive narratives such as what you and Virginia discuss in this episode. The Ralph Nader Radio Hour recently had Erica Payne on their program. Payne is the founder and president of the Patriotic Millionaires.
Payne started the discussion with a most unexpected comment by saying that the national budget isn’t like state and local budgets. Something like that. I almost fell out of my chair listening to that as I wasn’t expecting an MMT narrative, but then the rest of Payne’s commentary followed mainstream economic narratives. What a comedown! I wrote a fairly detailed comment highlighting the contradictions in Payne’s statements.
One of the Nader show co-hosts, Steve Skrovan (yes, the stand-up comedian, game show host, and ‘Seinfeld’/’Everybody Loves Raymond’ writer), brought Payne back on the following week and read my comment to her. Payne admitted her contradictory statements and made comments essentially saying that progressive audiences, and many politicians, expect ‘pay for’ arguments, even if they are entirely false and so she feels a bit trapped by reality and audience expectations. Wow, what a revelation!
Now, Payne’s understanding of MMT is at an elementary level, and her understanding of the JG is non-existent, but she knows that the ‘pay for’ arguments are inane and she spend a lot of time in that episode rubbishing that and common progressive narratives. The discussion starts at about 35:30 in this podcast, which is also available in text form: https://www.ralphnaderradiohour.com/p/listener-questions-and-feedback
You and Virginia did a good job discussing this in this RP episode, but it goes to show that there are people close to policy and policymakers who do know about MMT and who view it positively, but it just doesn’t get discussed with the public because progressives have adopted these self-defeating ideological positions rather than being open to empiricism about policy and how to achieve policy through informed economic policy. I know I’m speaking to the choir here, but ‘we’ (not anyone in this esteemed group, I know!) are, in many ways, our own worst enemies.
Hopefully nobody views this comment as self-promotion, but I thought Payne’s revelation is most interesting. Perhaps you ought to have a discussion with Erica Payne and fill in some of her knowledge gaps and maybe the rest of us can get a better understanding from her of where MMT sits on the policy stage and if there is any hope for her Patriotic Millionaires members to accept MMT-informed policies. Hell, wouldn’t it be fascinating to moderate a discussion between Payne and Warren Mosler (or another prominent MMTer, though Mosler is the obvious choice), if the two are willing to participate in such a thing?
It is just a thought! I think this might do a lot to help further everyone’s understanding of what’s really going on behind the scenes and to educate everyone involved. It could help all of us shape and focus our advocacy.
We've been hearing some media figures acknowledge the contradiction between their understanding of MMT principles and their use of 'tax dollar' phrasing. For some, like Sabby Sabs and Briahna Joy Gray, it's simply a habit they're trying to break. Others, like Erica Payne, do it intentionally because it's easier to play to audience expectations. What they seem to have in common is the ability to separate macroeconomic reality from other political and social concerns. As a Marxist and MMTer, I can't think of any facet of public or private life that isn't intrinsically linked to economics. It's the driving force to all of our structures - geopolitical, cultural, electoral, ideological, legal. How can we discuss any of it if we don't agree on the source of money.
Proles vs. Capitalist Assholes. Unfortunately, the assholes have control over our govt. and monetary system. Hence why in order to wrest control from the assholes, the proles must first #LearnMMT and understand the concept of #classstruggle.
Steve, regarding the comment at the 35 minute mark about the people lacking electoral power, I think ‘the people’ still have tremendous electoral power. That power is rarely realized though. Capital is highly organized and in solidarity on economic matters, for the most part. Capital is motivated to advance their economic cause. The people, on the other hand, are highly disorganized and lack solidarity (surely some of this is due to intentional agitation by capital). I sense very little motivation from the people. For all the talk about health care reform, for example, is there even any meaningful discourse on even just the progressive side about the nature of healthcare reform in terms of, say, the Beveridge vs. the Bismarck vs. the National Insurance models of national healthcare?
I’m thinking not even though our tardiness in implementing a national healthcare model at least gives us the opportunity to evaluate what so many other countries have done. There is certainly a ‘Waiting for Superman’ mentality that all which needs to be done is to find a leader who is supremely informed about all of these matters and will pick the right policies. Well, I suspect capitalists don’t subscribe to that belief. They know politicians are malleable and so they not only push their ideology, but they give politicians specific policies already worded to try to enact in Congress and they tell politicians how to sell the policies to their constituents.
Of course, ‘the people’ are highly divided. Certainly in the last century or so, western society has tried to strive for a ‘middle-class’ ideal. By that, I mean more of the academic definition of ‘middle-class’ rather than how some Americans view the term as being some kind of definition of having stable employment. We know, and it was known in Marx’s time, that middle-class people tend to associate more with capital than with the proletariat, if we want to use that term. We could look at higher education values, which often support more of a globalist, free market…neoliberal mentality versus more of a labor movement mentality. There’s a lot to unpack there. Much of this is related to things Bilbo has talked about in recent months about the New Left. I wish Bilbo would talk more about it and I hope it wasn’t just momentary discourse which came up in the aftermath of the US election!
Perhaps with the middle-class orientation of many progressives, much less the more centrist population, blocks people from seeing that the only way to reform the healthcare sector or the military-industrial complex, for example, is by supporting labor in those fields so that they can advocate for nationalization without fear of losing jobs. It is hard to achieve that without MMT-informed policies, and the JG is not really a factor here even though there should be a JG. People working in these fields where reform is needed need to have their current employment and wages guaranteed without fear of relocation or burdensome re-training. There are ways to achieve this, which I’ve mentioned before, but we don’t hear much about it. We rather see what I call Shylockian narratives from many progressive corners (not here at RP, I understand!) which looks like either progressives want to punish labor in these fields or labor is merely callously ignored. That doesn’t sound very progressive to ole’ Klassik and it also sounds like a surefire way to never have enough votes to achieve any kind of reform!
Regarding ‘taxpayer’ narratives, if I may rant and rave a little longer about how dangerous these can be, I recently read some London in Nathan J. Robinson’s progressive ‘Current Affairs’ publication. Robinson once claimed to be pro-MMT after Kelton’s book was published when it was trendy to be pro-MMT, but then he published this nonsense by another writer, apparently by an Ivy League history Ph.D. student, convincing people not to pay federal taxes to prevent the funding of the war machine. It is infuriating that this ‘progressive’ narrative is encouraging people to engage in illegal acts, which makes them subject to severe and likely crippling personal economic sanctions, based on a faulty understanding of the monetary system. Shame on Robinson for publishing this dangerous balderdash: https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/what-happened-to-war-tax-protests
Strongly recommend reading up on Marten Gilens Princeton study in 2014 and also a deeper dive into the structure of the "originating documents" drawn up by wealthy white land owners/slavers. I find the evolution of our nation proving out so many of the unfortunate misunderstandings of what we have as a government. A bourgeois estate with police to enforce their place in society. It is very tough to have an honest and deep look at what we call "electoral politics" and begin to understand each tool we think we have to "within the rules" fight back. It's a depressing thing when your only tool in the pouch is an oligarch controlled electoral, media and governance model
I’ll have to look into that. I will say is that I was recently involved in a very revelatory experience about the state of the understanding of MMT with those who influence policy and how this relates to progressive narratives such as what you and Virginia discuss in this episode. The Ralph Nader Radio Hour recently had Erica Payne on their program. Payne is the founder and president of the Patriotic Millionaires.
Payne started the discussion with a most unexpected comment by saying that the national budget isn’t like state and local budgets. Something like that. I almost fell out of my chair listening to that as I wasn’t expecting an MMT narrative, but then the rest of Payne’s commentary followed mainstream economic narratives. What a comedown! I wrote a fairly detailed comment highlighting the contradictions in Payne’s statements.
One of the Nader show co-hosts, Steve Skrovan (yes, the stand-up comedian, game show host, and ‘Seinfeld’/’Everybody Loves Raymond’ writer), brought Payne back on the following week and read my comment to her. Payne admitted her contradictory statements and made comments essentially saying that progressive audiences, and many politicians, expect ‘pay for’ arguments, even if they are entirely false and so she feels a bit trapped by reality and audience expectations. Wow, what a revelation!
Now, Payne’s understanding of MMT is at an elementary level, and her understanding of the JG is non-existent, but she knows that the ‘pay for’ arguments are inane and she spend a lot of time in that episode rubbishing that and common progressive narratives. The discussion starts at about 35:30 in this podcast, which is also available in text form: https://www.ralphnaderradiohour.com/p/listener-questions-and-feedback
You and Virginia did a good job discussing this in this RP episode, but it goes to show that there are people close to policy and policymakers who do know about MMT and who view it positively, but it just doesn’t get discussed with the public because progressives have adopted these self-defeating ideological positions rather than being open to empiricism about policy and how to achieve policy through informed economic policy. I know I’m speaking to the choir here, but ‘we’ (not anyone in this esteemed group, I know!) are, in many ways, our own worst enemies.
Hopefully nobody views this comment as self-promotion, but I thought Payne’s revelation is most interesting. Perhaps you ought to have a discussion with Erica Payne and fill in some of her knowledge gaps and maybe the rest of us can get a better understanding from her of where MMT sits on the policy stage and if there is any hope for her Patriotic Millionaires members to accept MMT-informed policies. Hell, wouldn’t it be fascinating to moderate a discussion between Payne and Warren Mosler (or another prominent MMTer, though Mosler is the obvious choice), if the two are willing to participate in such a thing?
It is just a thought! I think this might do a lot to help further everyone’s understanding of what’s really going on behind the scenes and to educate everyone involved. It could help all of us shape and focus our advocacy.
Definitely something to consider!
We've been hearing some media figures acknowledge the contradiction between their understanding of MMT principles and their use of 'tax dollar' phrasing. For some, like Sabby Sabs and Briahna Joy Gray, it's simply a habit they're trying to break. Others, like Erica Payne, do it intentionally because it's easier to play to audience expectations. What they seem to have in common is the ability to separate macroeconomic reality from other political and social concerns. As a Marxist and MMTer, I can't think of any facet of public or private life that isn't intrinsically linked to economics. It's the driving force to all of our structures - geopolitical, cultural, electoral, ideological, legal. How can we discuss any of it if we don't agree on the source of money.
I enjoyed this discussion immensely! Definitely, something for everyone.
Proles vs. Capitalist Assholes. Unfortunately, the assholes have control over our govt. and monetary system. Hence why in order to wrest control from the assholes, the proles must first #LearnMMT and understand the concept of #classstruggle.
Great episode 🥰🥰
So good to see you out here on substack